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	<title>Comments on: A wrecking amendment ?</title>
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	<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/03/11/a-wrecking-amendment/</link>
	<description>Security Research, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge</description>
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		<title>By: igb</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/03/11/a-wrecking-amendment/comment-page-1/#comment-51638</link>
		<dc:creator>igb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=1905#comment-51638</guid>
		<description>Ah, now I remember reading those slides at the time.  Talk about trying to keep thieves out of your house with a ``No Thieves&#039;&#039; doormat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, now I remember reading those slides at the time.  Talk about trying to keep thieves out of your house with a &#8220;No Thieves&#8221; doormat.</p>
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		<title>By: Clive Robinson</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/03/11/a-wrecking-amendment/comment-page-1/#comment-51621</link>
		<dc:creator>Clive Robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=1905#comment-51621</guid>
		<description>@ Richard,

The problem with the Internet and legislation goes much much deeper than copyright.

To put it bluntly amongst other things it destroys the distance metric that makes &quot;local markets&quot; and is fundemental but usually unstated assumption of economics, and compleatly de-rails the arguments of &quot;freemarket economics&quot;.

As you note &quot;copyright&quot; has different meanings in diferent places as kindle owners found out.

I know we don&#039;t have a world government but we also do not have realistic international legislation.

And it is not helped by various people going to different juresdictions to get enforcment they cannot get in other places (Look at the use of UK liable laws by for instance Saudis citizens trying to stop publication in the US of truthfull but embarising information).

My view point is all legislation of any kind must have,

1, A cooling off period.
2, A provisional period.
3, A sunset clause.

That is legislation should after being initialy pushed through both houses should be &quot;under examination&quot; to see if it passes muster, initialy (cooling off period) for profesors of law, judges, and other interested parties to go through the proposed legislation (as a fixed target not an evolving monster as it moves from house to house).

Then there should be a period of test cases whereby the law is stress tested at the expense of the public not some poor individual selected because they cannot afford to defend themselves.

Finaly after a relativly short time period the law should be brought back before the houses for reconsideration to decide if it should remain in part or whole on the statute books.

Now the last part brings up an interesting point about UK legislation versus that in other domains. In the UK the laws are writen in a very very convoluted way and are very self referential in a way that guarenties in most cases the law of &quot;unintended consiquences&quot; applies.

It is a habit that one can only conclude has been deliberatly fostered in the UK by civil service etc advisors to alow hidden traps and penalties to exist and thus hoodwink those voting the laws into existance without due consideration.

As for SI&#039;s and Henry the Eighth rules we realy should find better ways of doing things they are the tool of a Dictatorship not a Democracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Richard,</p>
<p>The problem with the Internet and legislation goes much much deeper than copyright.</p>
<p>To put it bluntly amongst other things it destroys the distance metric that makes &#8220;local markets&#8221; and is fundemental but usually unstated assumption of economics, and compleatly de-rails the arguments of &#8220;freemarket economics&#8221;.</p>
<p>As you note &#8220;copyright&#8221; has different meanings in diferent places as kindle owners found out.</p>
<p>I know we don&#8217;t have a world government but we also do not have realistic international legislation.</p>
<p>And it is not helped by various people going to different juresdictions to get enforcment they cannot get in other places (Look at the use of UK liable laws by for instance Saudis citizens trying to stop publication in the US of truthfull but embarising information).</p>
<p>My view point is all legislation of any kind must have,</p>
<p>1, A cooling off period.<br />
2, A provisional period.<br />
3, A sunset clause.</p>
<p>That is legislation should after being initialy pushed through both houses should be &#8220;under examination&#8221; to see if it passes muster, initialy (cooling off period) for profesors of law, judges, and other interested parties to go through the proposed legislation (as a fixed target not an evolving monster as it moves from house to house).</p>
<p>Then there should be a period of test cases whereby the law is stress tested at the expense of the public not some poor individual selected because they cannot afford to defend themselves.</p>
<p>Finaly after a relativly short time period the law should be brought back before the houses for reconsideration to decide if it should remain in part or whole on the statute books.</p>
<p>Now the last part brings up an interesting point about UK legislation versus that in other domains. In the UK the laws are writen in a very very convoluted way and are very self referential in a way that guarenties in most cases the law of &#8220;unintended consiquences&#8221; applies.</p>
<p>It is a habit that one can only conclude has been deliberatly fostered in the UK by civil service etc advisors to alow hidden traps and penalties to exist and thus hoodwink those voting the laws into existance without due consideration.</p>
<p>As for SI&#8217;s and Henry the Eighth rules we realy should find better ways of doing things they are the tool of a Dictatorship not a Democracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Clayton</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/03/11/a-wrecking-amendment/comment-page-1/#comment-51561</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Clayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=1905#comment-51561</guid>
		<description>@igb
&lt;i&gt;is it really the case that there are consumer ISPs who are implementing the IWF list by poisoning DNS responses&lt;/i&gt;

yes (would I lie to you?)

&lt;i&gt;I thought they were all doing it by injecting routes into their core&lt;/i&gt;

BT&#039;s &quot;cleanfeed&quot; does this, and others have similar schemes, but this is not universal (it&#039;s expensive!)

&lt;i&gt;it’s possible to use the DNS service as an oracle &lt;/i&gt;

Yes indeed:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/talks/090528-uknof13.pdf

also, bizarrely, on Wikileaks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@igb<br />
<i>is it really the case that there are consumer ISPs who are implementing the IWF list by poisoning DNS responses</i></p>
<p>yes (would I lie to you?)</p>
<p><i>I thought they were all doing it by injecting routes into their core</i></p>
<p>BT&#8217;s &#8220;cleanfeed&#8221; does this, and others have similar schemes, but this is not universal (it&#8217;s expensive!)</p>
<p><i>it’s possible to use the DNS service as an oracle </i></p>
<p>Yes indeed:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/talks/090528-uknof13.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/talks/090528-uknof13.pdf</a></p>
<p>also, bizarrely, on Wikileaks!</p>
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		<title>By: igb</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/03/11/a-wrecking-amendment/comment-page-1/#comment-51560</link>
		<dc:creator>igb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=1905#comment-51560</guid>
		<description>Richard, is it really the case that there are consumer ISPs who are implementing the IWF list by poisoning DNS responses?  I thought they were all doing it by injecting routes into their core which sent requests that match at an IP level to a trap proxy, which then blocked the specified URLs,  If they&#039;re doing that trick by instead returning A records for lookups which point at the trap proxy, not merely is it easy to defeat (as you point out) but it&#039;s possible to use the DNS service as an oracle for ``which hosts contain naughty material&#039;&#039; without having to play the complex game with TTLs you describe in one of your papers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, is it really the case that there are consumer ISPs who are implementing the IWF list by poisoning DNS responses?  I thought they were all doing it by injecting routes into their core which sent requests that match at an IP level to a trap proxy, which then blocked the specified URLs,  If they&#8217;re doing that trick by instead returning A records for lookups which point at the trap proxy, not merely is it easy to defeat (as you point out) but it&#8217;s possible to use the DNS service as an oracle for &#8220;which hosts contain naughty material&#8221; without having to play the complex game with TTLs you describe in one of your papers.</p>
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		<title>By: Crosbie Fitch</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/03/11/a-wrecking-amendment/comment-page-1/#comment-51544</link>
		<dc:creator>Crosbie Fitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=1905#comment-51544</guid>
		<description>If it&#039;s a wrecking amendment, it seems the BPI who drafted it must therefore be the one&#039;s who want to wreck the Digital Economy Bill.

Then again, perhaps the BPI are naive, and the LibDems who instantly recognised its utility as a wrecking amendment, jumped at the chance to table it?

William of Ockham says they&#039;re ALL naive, and the DEBill is a perfect expression of how ignorant industry and parliament is of the fundamental incompatibility between copyright and The Internet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#8217;s a wrecking amendment, it seems the BPI who drafted it must therefore be the one&#8217;s who want to wreck the Digital Economy Bill.</p>
<p>Then again, perhaps the BPI are naive, and the LibDems who instantly recognised its utility as a wrecking amendment, jumped at the chance to table it?</p>
<p>William of Ockham says they&#8217;re ALL naive, and the DEBill is a perfect expression of how ignorant industry and parliament is of the fundamental incompatibility between copyright and The Internet.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Swan</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2010/03/11/a-wrecking-amendment/comment-page-1/#comment-51418</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Swan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=1905#comment-51418</guid>
		<description>Richard,

Whilst I too hope that this was intended to be a wrecking amendment (or that it has that effect), you&#039;re right to point out that it&#039;s too dangerous to ignore.

That&#039;s why I&#039;m going to be doing a lightning talk on what this could mean for SaaS at this evening&#039;s CloudCamp event in London (http://cloudcamplondon7.eventbrite.com/).

For those that can&#039;t make it along I&#039;ve posted my slides at http://www.slideshare.net/cpswan/debill-vs-saas.

Cory Doctorow made some good points last week about &#039;web lockers&#039;, and what would happen if users and businesses couldn&#039;t access those. Clearly the unintended consequences go further than that. What would happen if an online storage service such as Amazon&#039;s S3 (which is after all just a gigantic web locker) was blocked? All of the SaaS applications that store objects there would suddenly stop working - a potential catastrophe for the businesses that depend on such services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>
<p>Whilst I too hope that this was intended to be a wrecking amendment (or that it has that effect), you&#8217;re right to point out that it&#8217;s too dangerous to ignore.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why I&#8217;m going to be doing a lightning talk on what this could mean for SaaS at this evening&#8217;s CloudCamp event in London (<a href="http://cloudcamplondon7.eventbrite.com/" rel="nofollow">http://cloudcamplondon7.eventbrite.com/</a>).</p>
<p>For those that can&#8217;t make it along I&#8217;ve posted my slides at <a href="http://www.slideshare.net/cpswan/debill-vs-saas" rel="nofollow">http://www.slideshare.net/cpswan/debill-vs-saas</a>.</p>
<p>Cory Doctorow made some good points last week about &#8216;web lockers&#8217;, and what would happen if users and businesses couldn&#8217;t access those. Clearly the unintended consequences go further than that. What would happen if an online storage service such as Amazon&#8217;s S3 (which is after all just a gigantic web locker) was blocked? All of the SaaS applications that store objects there would suddenly stop working &#8211; a potential catastrophe for the businesses that depend on such services.</p>
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