Comments on: Think of the children http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/ Security Research, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:43:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: TumProgsurgeT http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/comment-page-1/#comment-50149 TumProgsurgeT Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:08:42 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=520#comment-50149 She raced down them, not slowing when she reached ways that were unfamiliar to her. Hed tried to get his men to turn back, then, when they wouldnt, to fight. A number of prices? His fingers dug into the sand when Arkir pushed off him to find another opponent. Frustration and anger buzzed, blurring her vision. Her heart rate followed suit. She and Radin dined with Hyle and Gala in their rooms. Her fingers slid in, unhindered. She could still turn away and leave. I realize just saying it isnt enough, but I have to start somewhere. Would be nice if she mentioned the word love. At the end of her rope, Eyrhaen rushed for the door. She groaned, twisting the wrists in Tykirs grasp, rotating the hips pinned under Lanthans weight. What they had this moment was less, but also so much more. It sparked the flame, and she dropped to scream into the mattress. She gasped, stiffening when Brevin lost patience and thrust hard from underneath. Radin turned his head to look toward her, smiling. But I knew theyd eventually leave me. She was so close She would have had to come to terms with the fact. She raced down them, not slowing when she reached ways that were unfamiliar to her. Hed tried to get his men to turn back, then, when they wouldnt, to fight. A number of prices? His fingers dug into the sand when Arkir pushed off him to find another opponent. Frustration and anger buzzed, blurring her vision. Her heart rate followed suit. She and Radin dined with Hyle and Gala in their rooms. Her fingers slid in, unhindered. She could still turn away and leave. I realize just saying it isnt enough, but I have to start somewhere. Would be nice if she mentioned the word love. At the end of her rope, Eyrhaen rushed for the door. She groaned, twisting the wrists in Tykirs grasp, rotating the hips pinned under Lanthans weight. What they had this moment was less, but also so much more. It sparked the flame, and she dropped to scream into the mattress. She gasped, stiffening when Brevin lost patience and thrust hard from underneath. Radin turned his head to look toward her, smiling. But I knew theyd eventually leave me. She was so close She would have had to come to terms with the fact.

]]> By: John http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/comment-page-1/#comment-30297 John Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:02:43 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=520#comment-30297 The problem is that "concerned mothers" do not have much idea of website/information secuirty. This reminds me of the dot com boom, where folk with the barmiest of ideas could get together with venture capitalists, thern bail out when the site was floated on the stockmarket. These people had no or little idea of business, resulting in the bubble bursting. Sites like Facebook and Myspace (particularly Facebook) could be accessed using mum's or dad's email address, though this presumes children are more technically savvy than their parents (which is often the case). Children should be supervised when they are online. The problem is that “concerned mothers” do not have much idea of website/information secuirty. This reminds me of the dot com boom, where folk with the barmiest of ideas could get together with venture capitalists, thern bail out when the site was floated on the stockmarket. These people had no or little idea of business, resulting in the bubble bursting.

Sites like Facebook and Myspace (particularly Facebook) could be accessed using mum’s or dad’s email address, though this presumes children are more technically savvy than their parents (which is often the case).

Children should be supervised when they are online.

]]> By: Pete Austin http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/comment-page-1/#comment-30284 Pete Austin Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:20:05 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=520#comment-30284 @Mike. You say "professionals only do stuff to make money". I think the real issue is that childcare professionals (a) walk a tight-rope of legislation and do not want to get involved in anything that might risk their reputation in public and (b) are aware how difficult it is for a Website to legally make money off kids. So any professional or knowledgeable amateur who is invited to get involved in a start-up Website for children will run a mile, leaving it to be run by clueless amateurs, however idealistic they may be, and however worthwhile the project. @Mike. You say “professionals only do stuff to make money”.

I think the real issue is that childcare professionals (a) walk a tight-rope of legislation and do not want to get involved in anything that might risk their reputation in public and (b) are aware how difficult it is for a Website to legally make money off kids.

So any professional or knowledgeable amateur who is invited to get involved in a start-up Website for children will run a mile, leaving it to be run by clueless amateurs, however idealistic they may be, and however worthwhile the project.

]]> By: Mike Bond http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/comment-page-1/#comment-30269 Mike Bond Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:22:16 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=520#comment-30269 Interesting stuff, well done guys. I think the long and short of this is that the site went live before it should have done. Another 6 months of hard work and they could probably have ironed out the glaring faults and maybe made the business model a little less <i>in your face</i> too. Ok it would still have had problems, but not opened itself up for a damning critique. Clearly this site currently falls a long way short of all the standards you have pointed to, but I'd venture that a lot of the security measures in online sites for children are about ass-covering these days. Not that ass-covering isn't necessary : it's become part of life. I just find it difficult to take these kinds of risks seriously when I compare them to crossing the road (kids), and driving a car (adults). And in this environment of risk aversion, it seems there is a no-win situation for people providing facilities for kids: 1. childcare is so fraught with risk these days it has to be left to the professionals 2. professionals only do stuff to make money Therefore any amateur site is going to be woefully insecure or poorly managed and resourced. And any professionally run site is going to have an insidious thread of commercialism running through it that is ultimately just using the kids as tools to make money out of someone. SchoolTogetherNow isn't polarised at one end or the other of this amateur-commercial continuum, but to my mind, wherever you are on the scale, you are going to get accused of failing to "think of the children". Mike Interesting stuff, well done guys.

I think the long and short of this is that the site went live before it should have done. Another 6 months of hard work and they could probably have ironed out the glaring faults and maybe made the business model a little less in your face too. Ok it would still have had problems, but not opened itself up for a damning critique.

Clearly this site currently falls a long way short of all the standards you have pointed to, but I’d venture that a lot of the security measures in online sites for children are about ass-covering these days. Not that ass-covering isn’t necessary : it’s become part of life. I just find it difficult to take these kinds of risks seriously when I compare them to crossing the road (kids), and driving a car (adults). And in this environment of risk aversion, it seems there is a no-win situation for people providing facilities for kids:

1. childcare is so fraught with risk these days it has to be left to the professionals
2. professionals only do stuff to make money

Therefore any amateur site is going to be woefully insecure or poorly managed and resourced. And any professionally run site is going to have an insidious thread of commercialism running through it that is ultimately just using the kids as tools to make money out of someone. SchoolTogetherNow isn’t polarised at one end or the other of this amateur-commercial continuum, but to my mind, wherever you are on the scale, you are going to get accused of failing to “think of the children”.

Mike

]]> By: Joseph Bonneau http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/comment-page-1/#comment-30258 Joseph Bonneau Sun, 14 Dec 2008 03:13:52 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=520#comment-30258 Quite right you are to mention the USA's Child's Online Protection Act (COPPA) as a primary disincentive for the major social networking services to serve the under-13 demographic, the decision against Sony this week is making that look like a wise decision. Thanks for the links as well. Learned from the comments over on the Register article covering this blog post that there's at least one other startup competing with School Together Now, creatively named: http://facebookforkids.com/. They were a bit worried that bad publicity for School Together Now with "Facebook for kids" in the title would hurt their brand name, although frankly I can't see their brand name not causing a few other problems. This appears to confirm my suspicion that multiple websites will try to cater to this demographic. The point isn't to beat up one or another, but to figure out how to really build a secure children's site, if that's even possible. It's received almost zero research from the computer security community thus far, and we're seeing the results. Quite right you are to mention the USA’s Child’s Online Protection Act (COPPA) as a primary disincentive for the major social networking services to serve the under-13 demographic, the decision against Sony this week is making that look like a wise decision. Thanks for the links as well.

Learned from the comments over on the Register article covering this blog post that there’s at least one other startup competing with School Together Now, creatively named: http://facebookforkids.com/. They were a bit worried that bad publicity for School Together Now with “Facebook for kids” in the title would hurt their brand name, although frankly I can’t see their brand name not causing a few other problems.

This appears to confirm my suspicion that multiple websites will try to cater to this demographic. The point isn’t to beat up one or another, but to figure out how to really build a secure children’s site, if that’s even possible. It’s received almost zero research from the computer security community thus far, and we’re seeing the results.

]]> By: Antonomasia http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/comment-page-1/#comment-30250 Antonomasia Sat, 13 Dec 2008 00:07:57 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=520#comment-30250 How about this? http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/19815/20839/sony-sued-online-child-privacy.phtml http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/12/sony-dinged-1-m.html How about this?

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/19815/20839/sony-sued-online-child-privacy.phtml

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/12/sony-dinged-1-m.html

]]> By: Antonomasia http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/12/12/think-of-the-children/comment-page-1/#comment-30249 Antonomasia Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:48:07 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/?p=520#comment-30249 IANAL but I thought the age limit of 13 was because of US law making it awkward to keep data on under-13s. ("Because of federal law, we cannot collect any personal information from a child under the age of thirteen without the consent of that child's parent." -- http://web.usabaseball.com/about/privacy_policy.jsp) I wonder how this in the OFT news affects the advertising potential of the site. (Quoting from http://www.fool.co.uk/news/your-money/2008/11/28/another-21-trader-scams-banned.aspx ) Adverts mustn’t include anything to encourage children to buy advertised products or persuade their parents to buy the products for them. For example, a firm cannot advertise a comic book for children and state: ‘Read about the adventures of Fluffy the Bunny in this new comic book each week – ask you mum to buy it from your local newsagents’. " Lying about one’s age provides evidence of malevolence which can be used during prosecution, and is a crime by itself in some countries." - there is the recent terms-of-service as crime aspect to a US harrassmment case leading t suicide, but that may be an unusual application because of the circumstances. Otherwise on many occasions it's advisable and harmless to conceal your true dob to defend against "identity theft". Privacy concerns prevent me from saying who was passing through King's Cross station last night. IANAL but I thought the age limit of 13 was because of US law making it awkward to keep data on under-13s. (“Because of federal law, we cannot collect any personal information from a child under the age of thirteen without the consent of that child’s parent.” — http://web.usabaseball.com/about/privacy_policy.jsp)

I wonder how this in the OFT news affects the advertising potential of the site.
(Quoting from http://www.fool.co.uk/news/your-money/2008/11/28/another-21-trader-scams-banned.aspx )
Adverts mustn’t include anything to encourage children to buy advertised products or persuade their parents to buy the products for them. For example, a firm cannot advertise a comic book for children and state: ‘Read about the adventures of Fluffy the Bunny in this new comic book each week – ask you mum to buy it from your local newsagents’.

” Lying about one’s age provides evidence of malevolence which can be used during prosecution, and is a crime by itself in some countries.” – there is the recent terms-of-service as crime aspect to a US harrassmment case leading t suicide, but that may be an unusual application because of the circumstances. Otherwise on many occasions it’s advisable and harmless to conceal your true dob to defend against “identity theft”.

Privacy concerns prevent me from saying who was passing through King’s Cross station last night.

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