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	<title>Comments on: A backwards way of dealing with image spam</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/</link>
	<description>Security Research, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 12:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Rob Jefferis</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-22141</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Jefferis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 17:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-22141</guid>
		<description>Mario i would agree with your comment of

"It is like banning backpacks in London just in case they may contain explosives."

if 75% or more of the backpacks did carry explosives because that is probably the spam to legit ratio of pics coming in.


I think you would agree that if 75% of the people wondering around london with backpacks on had explosives in them, you would be pretty keen on a ban then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mario i would agree with your comment of</p>
<p>&#8220;It is like banning backpacks in London just in case they may contain explosives.&#8221;</p>
<p>if 75% or more of the backpacks did carry explosives because that is probably the spam to legit ratio of pics coming in.</p>
<p>I think you would agree that if 75% of the people wondering around london with backpacks on had explosives in them, you would be pretty keen on a ban then.</p>
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		<title>By: Mario</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-15652</link>
		<dc:creator>Mario</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-15652</guid>
		<description>One of the things that the original article, and most of the above comments forget, is that if you start preventing images from appearing in e-mails, you are slowly crippling the way the Internet was supposed to work. HTML e-mail *is* a formal RFC. Some of us work in corporate environments where most content is from known sources and where most senders are also known. In my non-corporate time, I also deal with some non-profits, sports clubs and other bodies where messages come from various ISPs, using various e-mail software, and using different styles of composition (some rich text, some plain ascii, etc). Plus, many pictures, of the "grandchild" type, but also of screen shots (sharp edges), and random other subjects. You just cannot apply an anti-GIF policy to that environment. This is why I think this solution has no future. It is too drastic and applies the wrong solution to the problem. It is like banning backpacks in London just in case they may contain explosives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the things that the original article, and most of the above comments forget, is that if you start preventing images from appearing in e-mails, you are slowly crippling the way the Internet was supposed to work. HTML e-mail *is* a formal RFC. Some of us work in corporate environments where most content is from known sources and where most senders are also known. In my non-corporate time, I also deal with some non-profits, sports clubs and other bodies where messages come from various ISPs, using various e-mail software, and using different styles of composition (some rich text, some plain ascii, etc). Plus, many pictures, of the &#8220;grandchild&#8221; type, but also of screen shots (sharp edges), and random other subjects. You just cannot apply an anti-GIF policy to that environment. This is why I think this solution has no future. It is too drastic and applies the wrong solution to the problem. It is like banning backpacks in London just in case they may contain explosives.</p>
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		<title>By: Pangolin</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12801</link>
		<dc:creator>Pangolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12801</guid>
		<description>I am presently filtering all mail with a .gif attachment, and have a whitelist of valid senders who may send a gif.  This seems to work well and eliminates the stock spam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am presently filtering all mail with a .gif attachment, and have a whitelist of valid senders who may send a gif.  This seems to work well and eliminates the stock spam.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Yackoski</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12790</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Yackoski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12790</guid>
		<description>I agree with Tom, its just an arms race...

If you block things with multiple images,  or even block images completely, then they'll start using stuff like http://www.omgili.com/captcha.php (but more advanced/efficient) along with some creative js/css to write hard to decipher things without images at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Tom, its just an arms race&#8230;</p>
<p>If you block things with multiple images,  or even block images completely, then they&#8217;ll start using stuff like <a href="http://www.omgili.com/captcha.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.omgili.com/captcha.php</a> (but more advanced/efficient) along with some creative js/css to write hard to decipher things without images at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Clayton</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12447</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Clayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 17:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12447</guid>
		<description>Ray said

What about people that use gif’s of their business card as their email signature. 

I said in the original article...

There’s then companies who, for corporate image reasons, send out a copy of their company logo with every email (you may think that’s clueless, but their marketing department begs to differ!) However, once again, there’s only a relatively small number of these logos AND THEY DON’T MORPH INTO NEW SHAPES ON EVERY EMAIL, so it is possible to envisage building a database of their cryptographic hash values and letting them through.

... and that remains my view. It's a database populating problem, and you either believe that's tractable or you don't.

Chris &#038; Tom's comments ("but you can build a spam emal out of multiple images") has some merit -- and I had not considered this idea -- but you do need a lot of these images and that's going to be a pretty clear distinguisher for emails you don't want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray said</p>
<p>What about people that use gif’s of their business card as their email signature. </p>
<p>I said in the original article&#8230;</p>
<p>There’s then companies who, for corporate image reasons, send out a copy of their company logo with every email (you may think that’s clueless, but their marketing department begs to differ!) However, once again, there’s only a relatively small number of these logos AND THEY DON’T MORPH INTO NEW SHAPES ON EVERY EMAIL, so it is possible to envisage building a database of their cryptographic hash values and letting them through.</p>
<p>&#8230; and that remains my view. It&#8217;s a database populating problem, and you either believe that&#8217;s tractable or you don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Chris &#038; Tom&#8217;s comments (&#8221;but you can build a spam emal out of multiple images&#8221;) has some merit &#8212; and I had not considered this idea &#8212; but you do need a lot of these images and that&#8217;s going to be a pretty clear distinguisher for emails you don&#8217;t want.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12444</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 17:19:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12444</guid>
		<description>What about people that use gif's of their business card as their email signature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about people that use gif&#8217;s of their business card as their email signature.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Fuegi</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12420</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Fuegi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 13:37:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12420</guid>
		<description>Richard, Tom Fuegi here. It's a good idea, but like most of the good spam-fighting ideas it just pushes the spammers "one more step down the path" while putting obstacles in the way of ordinary email. 

In this case the spammer's answer to only allowing whitelisted GIFs is to use the whitelisted GIFs to spell out words, in a similar way to the technique Chris Lawrence describes in comment number 12. Spam fighting can then come back again, using the probability of such  arrangements of GIFs and text occurring in non-spam messages, but we'd have saddled ourselves with a huge job of maintaining a list of every reasonable image or decoration and would have obtained only the usual brief respite.

Also, many people are already fairly satisfied with the efficiency of existing tools for dealing with image spam. Very few unsolicited mails (from new correspondants) will legitimately contain an image attachment at all and proper use of spamassassin means that my usual spammers never score less than six points with an image spam. Personally I would not find a hash whitelist useful, indeed I don't even bother with the costly image-analysis any more. I can make a very strong presumption that an unsolicited small image is spam and if the image is a GIF the presumption is always correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, Tom Fuegi here. It&#8217;s a good idea, but like most of the good spam-fighting ideas it just pushes the spammers &#8220;one more step down the path&#8221; while putting obstacles in the way of ordinary email. </p>
<p>In this case the spammer&#8217;s answer to only allowing whitelisted GIFs is to use the whitelisted GIFs to spell out words, in a similar way to the technique Chris Lawrence describes in comment number 12. Spam fighting can then come back again, using the probability of such  arrangements of GIFs and text occurring in non-spam messages, but we&#8217;d have saddled ourselves with a huge job of maintaining a list of every reasonable image or decoration and would have obtained only the usual brief respite.</p>
<p>Also, many people are already fairly satisfied with the efficiency of existing tools for dealing with image spam. Very few unsolicited mails (from new correspondants) will legitimately contain an image attachment at all and proper use of spamassassin means that my usual spammers never score less than six points with an image spam. Personally I would not find a hash whitelist useful, indeed I don&#8217;t even bother with the costly image-analysis any more. I can make a very strong presumption that an unsolicited small image is spam and if the image is a GIF the presumption is always correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12059</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 03:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-12059</guid>
		<description>How long will it be before spammers start doing &lt;a href="http://holosys.co.uk/temp/viagra/" rel="nofollow"&gt;this&lt;/a&gt;?  I've already had this using text, where the text was a tiny font used as 'pixels' to spell out the real message, while the filters just picked up the text and passed it.

Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How long will it be before spammers start doing <a href="http://holosys.co.uk/temp/viagra/" rel="nofollow">this</a>?  I&#8217;ve already had this using text, where the text was a tiny font used as &#8216;pixels&#8217; to spell out the real message, while the filters just picked up the text and passed it.</p>
<p>Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-9830</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-9830</guid>
		<description>A bit OT, but I'd go so far as to say that appending scanned signatures is very uncommon, for good reason.

I forget the statute (if any) underpinning this, but it seems to be pretty much taken as read these days that, for most purposes, typing one's name at the end of an email counts as a signature. 

Incidentally the USPTO started recognising a thing called an S-signature a few years ago (for online applications). It consists of typing ones name, bracketed by forward slashes, hitting enter, then typing it again. For example:

/Fred Bloggs/
Fred Blogs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit OT, but I&#8217;d go so far as to say that appending scanned signatures is very uncommon, for good reason.</p>
<p>I forget the statute (if any) underpinning this, but it seems to be pretty much taken as read these days that, for most purposes, typing one&#8217;s name at the end of an email counts as a signature. </p>
<p>Incidentally the USPTO started recognising a thing called an S-signature a few years ago (for online applications). It consists of typing ones name, bracketed by forward slashes, hitting enter, then typing it again. For example:</p>
<p>/Fred Bloggs/<br />
Fred Blogs</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Clayton</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-9776</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Clayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/11/20/a-backwards-way-of-dealing-with-image-spam/#comment-9776</guid>
		<description>I don't think the hotmails and yahoos (very Gulliver's Travels!) will not be creating different smileys every time -- viz they are exactly the sort of identical images that will be straightforward to whitelist. I would be astounded if there were more than 100 or so images involved. Clearly, if the whitelist started growing towards the millions then the scheme would be infeasible -- my contention is that it will be much shorter than that...

... I do agree that if everyone scans their signature and appends it to their email then we're looking at very long lists. From my experience, I don't think that sort of behaviour is very common at the moment, and a default approach of "block all images" (which looks pretty attractive this month) is going to provide a certain level of disincentive to having that change.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the hotmails and yahoos (very Gulliver&#8217;s Travels!) will not be creating different smileys every time &#8212; viz they are exactly the sort of identical images that will be straightforward to whitelist. I would be astounded if there were more than 100 or so images involved. Clearly, if the whitelist started growing towards the millions then the scheme would be infeasible &#8212; my contention is that it will be much shorter than that&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230; I do agree that if everyone scans their signature and appends it to their email then we&#8217;re looking at very long lists. From my experience, I don&#8217;t think that sort of behaviour is very common at the moment, and a default approach of &#8220;block all images&#8221; (which looks pretty attractive this month) is going to provide a certain level of disincentive to having that change.</p>
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