Comments on: Security Theater at the Grand Coulee Dam http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/ Security Research, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge Tue, 07 Oct 2008 02:43:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Blaine http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-28534 Blaine Wed, 19 Mar 2008 04:41:41 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-28534 I went there in 1999, it was an interesting place. Of course, I was able to walk around and check out the place on my own. It was fun. NOW, this country is nothing but a mere JOKE. After all, terrorism is in everyones language anymore, you can't do anything fun here in the US because of this crap. Why bother with any tours at all? After all, anymore everyones a terrorist. Welcome to theNEW USA, land of where everyones a terrorist. I went there in 1999, it was an interesting place. Of course, I was able to walk around and check out the place on my own. It was fun. NOW, this country is nothing but a mere JOKE. After all, terrorism is in everyones language anymore, you can’t do anything fun here in the US because of this crap. Why bother with any tours at all? After all, anymore everyones a terrorist.

Welcome to theNEW USA, land of where everyones a terrorist.

]]> By: Srijith http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-974 Srijith Thu, 10 Aug 2006 07:54:37 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-974 Could it be that somehow the structural integrity of the Center is linked to that of the dam? On second thought, that would be a weird link indeed! :) Could it be that somehow the structural integrity of the Center is linked to that of the dam?

On second thought, that would be a weird link indeed! :)

]]> By: Derrick Johnson http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-970 Derrick Johnson Wed, 09 Aug 2006 23:42:05 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-970 In reference to the canoe, there are floating net lines that keep out debris and boats (the semi-circular shapes seen at the bottom of the photos) http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/image_gx.asp?cpx=118.974998&cpy=47.965599&res=8&provider_id=380&t=&OL= ...and I know the dam has snipers covering the Dam in the event of breaches by water, or vehicles that make a break for the center of the Dam. A car or boat would be filled with a great deal of lead in that event. An aircraft set into a dive from a sufficient altitude would be a kinetic object; just falling from gravity. No firearm or missile could really push it off course. It would kill the pilot, or even fragment the plane, but a sufficiently hardened device could survive the ordeal. In reference to the backpacks...well it’s a Federal Project, and therefore it’s considered a target. You may have not noticed the theater up above all the displays. It seats 139 people and they run several informational films up there. It’s a semi-notable stop on the tourist circuit and tour busses stop there off and on. A backpack filled with dynamite and nails could do quite a bit of damage to allot of people when such a place would be packed. Incidentally, my interest comes from the fact that I will be working at the base of the Dam in the town of "Coulee Dam" quite shortly, and these issues seem more relevant now. Derrick Johnson In reference to the canoe, there are floating net lines that keep out debris and boats (the semi-circular shapes seen at the bottom of the photos)

http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/image_gx.asp?cpx=118.974998&cpy=47.965599&res=8&provider_id=380&t=&OL=

…and I know the dam has snipers covering the Dam in the event of breaches by water, or vehicles that make a break for the center of the Dam. A car or boat would be filled with a great deal of lead in that event. An aircraft set into a dive from a sufficient altitude would be a kinetic object; just falling from gravity. No firearm or missile could really push it off course. It would kill the pilot, or even fragment the plane, but a sufficiently hardened device could survive the ordeal.

In reference to the backpacks…well it’s a Federal Project, and therefore it’s considered a target. You may have not noticed the theater up above all the displays. It seats 139 people and they run several informational films up there. It’s a semi-notable stop on the tourist circuit and tour busses stop there off and on. A backpack filled with dynamite and nails could do quite a bit of damage to allot of people when such a place would be packed.

Incidentally, my interest comes from the fact that I will be working at the base of the Dam in the town of “Coulee Dam” quite shortly, and these issues seem more relevant now.

Derrick Johnson

]]> By: Richard Clayton http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-956 Richard Clayton Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:53:18 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-956 All this talk of bombs and explosives is riveting... and I have no doubt that the authorities worry about small boats approaching the dam (why mess with a Cessna when you can use a canoe?) However, exactly how does keeping backpacks out of the visitor center help to mitigate the threat? That was the point of my article, to ask why conceptually sensible precautions at the dam site were also being applied to one of the many buildings that are hundreds of yards away? All this talk of bombs and explosives is riveting… and I have no doubt that the authorities worry about small boats approaching the dam (why mess with a Cessna when you can use a canoe?)

However, exactly how does keeping backpacks out of the visitor center help to mitigate the threat? That was the point of my article, to ask why conceptually sensible precautions at the dam site were also being applied to one of the many buildings that are hundreds of yards away?

]]> By: Derrick Johnson http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-955 Derrick Johnson Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:45:20 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-955 I dont think anybody is all that worried about tourism. I think the concern might be "Special Atomic Demolition Munitions" that my have disappeared from the former Soviet Union during its breakup. Their yield might be 1/10 of a Hiroshima bomb, but still more powerful than any conventional devices. Here are some links to the American version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Atomic_Demolition_Munition http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/madm.htm During World War 2, the development of the "bouncing bomb" showed how mere conventional explosives were employed in the destruction of German dams. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouncing_bomb The key was to detonate the explosive underwater, behind the dam and use the massive pressure of the water to help destroy the dam. It seems obvious to me that a small atomic device such as this; flown in a small Cessna, and a lone suicide pilot could crash into and deliver such a device directly in the reservoir behind the dam at its midpoint. Subsequent detonation by depth pressure sensors could ensure maximum impact and lead to a tremendous cascade of water down the Columbia River channel. As pointed out in Schneier's article, There are another 10 dams downstream from Grand Coulee Dam that could possibly be destroyed or at least overtopped and inundated. http://www.cqs.washington.edu/crisp/hydro/ Since the Columbia river dams feed power all the way down into California, this would effect the entire west coast energy supply. This would reverberate in disruption to major industry and subsequently in stock market investment in the area. Additionally, irrigation systems would be rendered useless and leave much of Eastern Washington Agriculture without water. I think the only thing that keeps terrorists from doing this is that the Dam isn’t as symbolic as the World Trade Center. I dont think anybody is all that worried about tourism.

I think the concern might be “Special Atomic Demolition Munitions” that my have disappeared from the former Soviet Union during its breakup. Their yield might be 1/10 of a Hiroshima bomb, but still more powerful than any conventional devices. Here are some links to the American version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Atomic_Demolition_Munition
http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/madm.htm

During World War 2, the development of the “bouncing bomb” showed how mere conventional explosives were employed in the destruction of German dams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouncing_bomb

The key was to detonate the explosive underwater, behind the dam and use the massive pressure of the water to help destroy the dam.

It seems obvious to me that a small atomic device such as this; flown in a small Cessna, and a lone suicide pilot could crash into and deliver such a device directly in the reservoir behind the dam at its midpoint.

Subsequent detonation by depth pressure sensors could ensure maximum impact and lead to a tremendous cascade of water down the Columbia River channel.

As pointed out in Schneier’s article, There are another 10 dams downstream from Grand Coulee Dam that could possibly be destroyed or at least overtopped and inundated.

http://www.cqs.washington.edu/crisp/hydro/

Since the Columbia river dams feed power all the way down into California, this would effect the entire west coast energy supply. This would reverberate in disruption to major industry and subsequently in stock market investment in the area.

Additionally, irrigation systems would be rendered useless and leave much of Eastern Washington Agriculture without water.

I think the only thing that keeps terrorists from doing this is that the Dam isn’t as symbolic as the World Trade Center.

]]> By: Mike Bond http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-953 Mike Bond Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:02:16 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-953 Hmmm good point giafly. I wonder if we could get a handle on the size of this possible financial threat. Maybe some Americans could enlighten us as to the dependence or otherwise of the US tourist industry on foreign visitors? Or whether terrorist attacks in New York (for example) have deterred US inter-state tourists from going to that city. My 2p. Hmmm good point giafly. I wonder if we could get a handle on the size of this possible financial threat.

Maybe some Americans could enlighten us as to the dependence or otherwise of the US tourist industry on foreign visitors? Or whether terrorist attacks in New York (for example) have deterred US inter-state tourists from going to that city.

My 2p.

]]> By: giafly http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-920 giafly Fri, 04 Aug 2006 17:23:08 +0000 http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/08/02/security-theater-at-the-grand-coulee-dam/#comment-920 Q: What’s the threat here? A: Financial. A "successful" terrorist attack at a major visitor attraction would likely deter more tourists than the exact same attack at a minor visitor attraction. I don't claim the USA applies this logic consistently btw. See e.g: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/july-dec01/aftershocks.html "I think Egypt has paid a tremendous price. We've lost billions of dollars as a result of the terrorist activities over the past seven or eight years. We've lost jobs. We've lost people. Trust me, Egyptians want to live. This is a very peaceful nation." Q: What’s the threat here?

A: Financial. A “successful” terrorist attack at a major visitor attraction would likely deter more tourists than the exact same attack at a minor visitor attraction. I don’t claim the USA applies this logic consistently btw.

See e.g: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/africa/july-dec01/aftershocks.html
“I think Egypt has paid a tremendous price. We’ve lost billions of dollars as a result of the terrorist activities over the past seven or eight years. We’ve lost jobs. We’ve lost people. Trust me, Egyptians want to live. This is a very peaceful nation.”

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