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	<title>Comments on: Fraud or feature?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/</link>
	<description>Security Research, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 12:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Billy</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-29369</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-29369</guid>
		<description>Thas so true fraud or feature. When i first saw one out a Barclays ATM cashpoint i got quite worried. I thought it was a magnetic stripe skimmer as it was protruding. So i left it and went to another atm round the corner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thas so true fraud or feature. When i first saw one out a Barclays ATM cashpoint i got quite worried. I thought it was a magnetic stripe skimmer as it was protruding. So i left it and went to another atm round the corner.</p>
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		<title>By: the saint</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-27574</link>
		<dc:creator>the saint</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-27574</guid>
		<description>KLOD where are you I have been searching for this device.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KLOD where are you I have been searching for this device.</p>
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		<title>By: Klod</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-23410</link>
		<dc:creator>Klod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 14:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-23410</guid>
		<description>I know where to buy the skimmer with GPRS... J1,000 
All the skimmed data are immediately sent into cell-phone or email.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know where to buy the skimmer with GPRS&#8230; J1,000<br />
All the skimmed data are immediately sent into cell-phone or email.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam S</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-398</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-398</guid>
		<description>Mike Bond's comment that &lt;em&gt;That said, a flat ATM with a full TV screen could do some funky advertising.
&lt;/em&gt; reminded me of the "funky advertising" at Defcon, which I blogged at &lt;a href="http://www.emergentchaos.com/archives/2005/07/the_alexis_park.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Alexis Park ATMS are Perfectly Safe&lt;/a&gt;.

More seriously, I think that a peaceful, predictable experience helps users notice things which are out of the ordinary.  The goal of advertising is to attract attention, and that attention is taken away from other things.

I'll offer a prediction:  ATMs with 'funky advertising' will have higher error and fraud rates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike Bond&#8217;s comment that <em>That said, a flat ATM with a full TV screen could do some funky advertising.<br />
</em> reminded me of the &#8220;funky advertising&#8221; at Defcon, which I blogged at <a href="http://www.emergentchaos.com/archives/2005/07/the_alexis_park.html" rel="nofollow">The Alexis Park ATMS are Perfectly Safe</a>.</p>
<p>More seriously, I think that a peaceful, predictable experience helps users notice things which are out of the ordinary.  The goal of advertising is to attract attention, and that attention is taken away from other things.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll offer a prediction:  ATMs with &#8216;funky advertising&#8217; will have higher error and fraud rates.</p>
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		<title>By: Saar Drimer</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-397</link>
		<dc:creator>Saar Drimer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-397</guid>
		<description>[note: my previous comment got messed up due to an improperly terminated tag; I removed it, here is the "better" version]

OK, I'll bite :)

To reiterate my two distinct points:

1. Make it difficult to attach/install/hide any sort of extra/unintended/malicious or otherwise equipment on and 
around the ATM. Doing this by making the ATM's design  "simpler." Simpler = one flat slot and a touchscreen monitor (of course, with allowance for use by people with disabilities.) If someone can explain to me why this is counter-productive, insecure or "uniformly awful" (eye-candy is a valid argument, but falls under the "personal taste" category, so let's leave that out) 
to the function of &lt;em&gt;ATMs dispensing cash&lt;/em&gt;, I'd appreciate it. There is no reason to make anything more "user-friendly" than it needs to be; feature creep is most often the reason why systems fail or become unmanageable/inefficient.

2. Eliminate receipts since their value is outweighed by the fact that people throw them at the nearest bin, providing account information to dumpster divers. (Sure, with the added value of keeping "my" ATM design simpler, but that is secondary.)

From a real-world threat perspective, maybe that assertion
is not accurate, although the threat is still there. I'll also agree that an option (default = off) for receipts would be/is "nice" for people who actually keep track of them. Some do, I recognize; I don't. 

However, I'd like to address the two functions receipts have that were brought up in the comments above.

Deposits (in the US, not sure of the UK): The receipt one gets for deposits is useless as *proof* since the &lt;em&gt;depositor&lt;/em&gt;  decides the value that is printed on it. One can "deposit" a blank envelope and claim it contained a check for $10,000 and receive a receipt to that effect. The banks will not accept that as evidence and will request the depositor to have the check issuer write a new one. The receipts here are of no real value as a &lt;em&gt;dispute mechanism&lt;/em&gt;.

Withdrawals: In John Holmes' case, the ATM &lt;em&gt;did not&lt;/em&gt; fail... it produced the right records. What failed were the mechanisms supporting the ATM. As such, receipt or not, it would have been just as easy for the bank to examine the ATM's records (which I think they did anyway, regardless of the show of receipt.) In this case, sure, the receipt had some further value, perhaps in convincing a feisty teller, although the same outcome could have been had without it, IMO.

Given time, every system will fail, including ATMs. I could not find (google) statistics of ATM failure rate but my guess is that it is very very low (really, it &lt;em&gt;has&lt;/em&gt; to be.) If anyone has ATM MTBF numbers, please share.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[note: my previous comment got messed up due to an improperly terminated tag; I removed it, here is the "better" version]</p>
<p>OK, I&#8217;ll bite <img src='http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>To reiterate my two distinct points:</p>
<p>1. Make it difficult to attach/install/hide any sort of extra/unintended/malicious or otherwise equipment on and<br />
around the ATM. Doing this by making the ATM&#8217;s design  &#8220;simpler.&#8221; Simpler = one flat slot and a touchscreen monitor (of course, with allowance for use by people with disabilities.) If someone can explain to me why this is counter-productive, insecure or &#8220;uniformly awful&#8221; (eye-candy is a valid argument, but falls under the &#8220;personal taste&#8221; category, so let&#8217;s leave that out)<br />
to the function of <em>ATMs dispensing cash</em>, I&#8217;d appreciate it. There is no reason to make anything more &#8220;user-friendly&#8221; than it needs to be; feature creep is most often the reason why systems fail or become unmanageable/inefficient.</p>
<p>2. Eliminate receipts since their value is outweighed by the fact that people throw them at the nearest bin, providing account information to dumpster divers. (Sure, with the added value of keeping &#8220;my&#8221; ATM design simpler, but that is secondary.)</p>
<p>From a real-world threat perspective, maybe that assertion<br />
is not accurate, although the threat is still there. I&#8217;ll also agree that an option (default = off) for receipts would be/is &#8220;nice&#8221; for people who actually keep track of them. Some do, I recognize; I don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>However, I&#8217;d like to address the two functions receipts have that were brought up in the comments above.</p>
<p>Deposits (in the US, not sure of the UK): The receipt one gets for deposits is useless as *proof* since the <em>depositor</em>  decides the value that is printed on it. One can &#8220;deposit&#8221; a blank envelope and claim it contained a check for $10,000 and receive a receipt to that effect. The banks will not accept that as evidence and will request the depositor to have the check issuer write a new one. The receipts here are of no real value as a <em>dispute mechanism</em>.</p>
<p>Withdrawals: In John Holmes&#8217; case, the ATM <em>did not</em> fail&#8230; it produced the right records. What failed were the mechanisms supporting the ATM. As such, receipt or not, it would have been just as easy for the bank to examine the ATM&#8217;s records (which I think they did anyway, regardless of the show of receipt.) In this case, sure, the receipt had some further value, perhaps in convincing a feisty teller, although the same outcome could have been had without it, IMO.</p>
<p>Given time, every system will fail, including ATMs. I could not find (google) statistics of ATM failure rate but my guess is that it is very very low (really, it <em>has</em> to be.) If anyone has ATM MTBF numbers, please share.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Bond</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-395</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Bond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-395</guid>
		<description>Tyler wrote:
&lt;i&gt;Basically, there is a substantial benefit to providing the option for receipts when compared to the very minor increase in design clutter. The same may not be said for brochure holders&lt;/i&gt;

Hehe, sorry to continue heckling, but as per my own point, a flat ATM design would not preclue receipts. On the economics of brochure holders, are you sure Tyler? I guess the question is economical for whom? I dare say the uptake of extra savings accounts/mortages/pet insurance etc. versus the extra risk of phantom withdrawal cameras falls firmly in favour of having the brochure holders, from the point of view of the bank.

That said, a flat ATM with a full TV screen could do some funky advertising. 

Question: What other modifications will ATMs of the future have? If ATM designers can think of a way to make sound part of the authentication system (maybe via a bluetooth headset which by then are permanently glued to people's heads) then they can blast people with full sound and video adverts while they wait for authorisation...

I guess ATMs sit on some uncomfortable middle ground between face to face banking (v. expensive but great for sales) and internet banking (v. cheap but probably crap for sales).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tyler wrote:<br />
<i>Basically, there is a substantial benefit to providing the option for receipts when compared to the very minor increase in design clutter. The same may not be said for brochure holders</i></p>
<p>Hehe, sorry to continue heckling, but as per my own point, a flat ATM design would not preclue receipts. On the economics of brochure holders, are you sure Tyler? I guess the question is economical for whom? I dare say the uptake of extra savings accounts/mortages/pet insurance etc. versus the extra risk of phantom withdrawal cameras falls firmly in favour of having the brochure holders, from the point of view of the bank.</p>
<p>That said, a flat ATM with a full TV screen could do some funky advertising. </p>
<p>Question: What other modifications will ATMs of the future have? If ATM designers can think of a way to make sound part of the authentication system (maybe via a bluetooth headset which by then are permanently glued to people&#8217;s heads) then they can blast people with full sound and video adverts while they wait for authorisation&#8230;</p>
<p>I guess ATMs sit on some uncomfortable middle ground between face to face banking (v. expensive but great for sales) and internet banking (v. cheap but probably crap for sales).</p>
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		<title>By: Tyler Moore</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-394</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyler Moore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-394</guid>
		<description>Saar,
I appreciate your point about wanting simplicity in the design so that it is difficult to fashion plausible skimmers, but I do not see how removing the option for printed receipts help achieve such a goal.  Clearly, printed receipts can prove invaluable for resolving a dispute with the bank, as personally demonstrated by some of the comments above.  Furthermore, your proposal for obtaining receipts from the bank is unrealistic -- (1) it removes the 'automated' from ATM, driving up operational costs and (2) you may not realise you need the receipt until you get an incorrect bank statement next month!

Basically, there is a substantial benefit to providing the option for receipts when compared to the very minor increase in design clutter.  The same may not be said for brochure holders.

Tyler</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saar,<br />
I appreciate your point about wanting simplicity in the design so that it is difficult to fashion plausible skimmers, but I do not see how removing the option for printed receipts help achieve such a goal.  Clearly, printed receipts can prove invaluable for resolving a dispute with the bank, as personally demonstrated by some of the comments above.  Furthermore, your proposal for obtaining receipts from the bank is unrealistic &#8212; (1) it removes the &#8216;automated&#8217; from ATM, driving up operational costs and (2) you may not realise you need the receipt until you get an incorrect bank statement next month!</p>
<p>Basically, there is a substantial benefit to providing the option for receipts when compared to the very minor increase in design clutter.  The same may not be said for brochure holders.</p>
<p>Tyler</p>
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		<title>By: John Holmes</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holmes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-393</guid>
		<description>On receipts:
These are definitely valuable.  i once had an ATM deliver less than I asked for, but the receipt matched the delivery, however the debit to my account was for the request amount.  That receipt and a lot of argument saved me rather a lot of hard-earned money.  ATMs do lie!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On receipts:<br />
These are definitely valuable.  i once had an ATM deliver less than I asked for, but the receipt matched the delivery, however the debit to my account was for the request amount.  That receipt and a lot of argument saved me rather a lot of hard-earned money.  ATMs do lie!</p>
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		<title>By: Saar Drimer</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-391</link>
		<dc:creator>Saar Drimer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-391</guid>
		<description>Jean Camp,
Your commenting style does not invite the kind of constructive discourse we'd like to encourage on this weblog; I will therefore file it under "ignore."
Regards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jean Camp,<br />
Your commenting style does not invite the kind of constructive discourse we&#8217;d like to encourage on this weblog; I will therefore file it under &#8220;ignore.&#8221;<br />
Regards.</p>
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		<title>By: Markus Kuhn</title>
		<link>http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus Kuhn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/30/fraud-or-feature/#comment-380</guid>
		<description>The "Should ATMs print receipts?" discussion seems somewhat redundant, as the solution is both obvious and already widely implemented. At least in Britain, all ATMs that I ever used asked me whether I would like to have a receipt printed or not. This is not only the securest and most customer-friendly solution that I can think of, it also helps to keep the streets cleaner and reduces maintenance costs. I'm, therefore, very surprised to hear that optional ATM recipts are not common practice today globally. Sounds like a "no-brainer" to me, as they say in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;Should ATMs print receipts?&#8221; discussion seems somewhat redundant, as the solution is both obvious and already widely implemented. At least in Britain, all ATMs that I ever used asked me whether I would like to have a receipt printed or not. This is not only the securest and most customer-friendly solution that I can think of, it also helps to keep the streets cleaner and reduces maintenance costs. I&#8217;m, therefore, very surprised to hear that optional ATM recipts are not common practice today globally. Sounds like a &#8220;no-brainer&#8221; to me, as they say in the US.</p>
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